Announcer 0:00
From Los Angeles. This is the Echelon Radio Network.

Jerri Hemsworth 0:09
Good morning. This is Jerri Hemsworth with the Echelon radio podcast. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful Friday morning. And unfortunately, I’m sitting here in a studio with no windows, but fortunately, my guest is David Schneider, how are you doing, David?

David Schneider 0:26
I’m doing great. Jerri, thanks for having me.

Jerri Hemsworth 0:28
So you’re an attorney, and I’ve known you for a number of years.

David Schneider 0:32
Been a while now.

Jerri Hemsworth 0:33
Yeah, tell us what kind of law you practice, because I think you do some cool stuff.

David Schneider 0:37
I’m an estate planning attorney, which means I help people to develop their estate plan, wills, trust, power of attorney. And then when I’m not doing that, I’m a probate attorney, meaning I’m helping those families that didn’t properly plan through probate proceedings, helping to get those assets to the next generation. And then, in addition to that, I help people with limited conservatorships.

Jerri Hemsworth 1:06
Limited conservatorships, what is that exactly?

David Schneider 1:11
So, when a family has a child, an autistic child, somebody on the spectrum, Asperger’s, things like that, parents are obviously in charge of children, just as as you and I were, but when the child becomes 18, just like in your family and mine.

Jerri Hemsworth 1:30
That’s what happens when you feed them, right?

David Schneider 1:32
Well, yeah, if you feed them, you educate them, you generally, you provide them with a little bit of clothing.

Jerri Hemsworth 1:38
They grow.

David Schneider 1:38
They grow. And with any luck at all, they grow beyond us.

Jerri Hemsworth 1:42
Yes.

David Schneider 1:42
They succeed us, but some kids won’t, and those are the kids that are on the spectrum. So now they’re adults, but they can’t advocate for themselves, so we utilize something called a limited conservatorship, and this is essentially allowing the parents to stay in the role that they had been in, to be able to make decisions where they’re going to live, healthcare decisions.

Jerri Hemsworth 1:42
I was going to say, doctors.

David Schneider 2:11
Doctors, interactions with schools.

Jerri Hemsworth 2:13
Gotcha.

David Schneider 2:15
Their ability handling, their ability to enter into a contract. You know, some kids will be very high on the spectrum, and we need a little bit of help. Some kids will be much lower and need all the help, all right, decisions.

Jerri Hemsworth 2:29
Right, Right.

David Schneider 2:30
So California instituted a number of years ago, a different conservatorship proceeding that’s designed specifically just for them, called a limited conservatorship.

Jerri Hemsworth 2:42
Okay.

David Schneider 2:42
And it’s nice, because these courts, most courts, are adversarial courts. You have an attorney, I have an attorney, and they’re gonna,

Jerri Hemsworth 2:53
We’re gonna fight this together. Sure.

David Schneider 2:55
In limited conservatorship, the conservatee, that’s the child who’s now become an adult, they have counsel that’s assigned to them, usually through the court system, and then I represent, typically the parents, or maybe it’s the aunt or the older sibling or somebody to bring this process forward. And of course, we have the judge on the bench. Well in the limited conservatorship, all three of us are essentially working in the same direction.

Jerri Hemsworth 3:25
Gotcha.

David Schneider 3:26
Really not adversarial in the sense that we’re trying to protect our clients rights.

Jerri Hemsworth 3:31
Yes.

David Schneider 3:31
So is the counsel for the child.

Jerri Hemsworth 3:33
Yes.

David Schneider 3:33
But we’re working together. We talk to each other, and if we have disagreements about what types of control the child needs. You know, we’re going to talk it out and we’re going to reason it together. So it’s it’s nice, it’s many times when you’re in court, you get an answer for your client. Maybe it’s complete. Maybe it isn’t. These answers are complete. We get to finality, and we get to where everybody wants to go. And so it’s rewarding.

Jerri Hemsworth 4:04
I was gonna say, it sounds like a very feel good experience, and very for you as a human and a kind and and giving human must feel “Okay. I’m doing what I I’m supposed to be doing.

David Schneider 4:19
Well…

Jerri Hemsworth 4:20
This is my gift.

David Schneider 4:20
Well, yeah, you know the opportunity to guide somebody through this process. These are they’re very form driven. They’re very difficult, and they’re very meticulous. You mess up on a form, you don’t check a box. All right, we’re going to continue you out 30 days, and in LA County and in Ventura County, there isn’t a 30 day calendar.

Jerri Hemsworth 4:46
Oh!

David Schneider 4:46
The courts are so jammed up that when you get a continuance, it’s 60 days plus. And this can also rack up attorneys fees.

Jerri Hemsworth 4:58
I was gonna say that, and there could be some devastating consequences to that. I would imagine.

David Schneider 5:03
Yes, timing you were trying to get before the kids school counselor, or you have an IEP coming up.

Jerri Hemsworth 5:10
Yup, yeah.

David Schneider 5:11
I was, I have a client that’s got some travel concerns coming up.

Jerri Hemsworth 5:16
Sure.

David Schneider 5:16
And so, yeah, nobody wants to be there in the first place.

Jerri Hemsworth 5:20
Right, right.

David Schneider 5:21
And now you have to come back, and you have to take more time off work, and you got to pay your attorney more money. And, you know.

Jerri Hemsworth 5:28
The stress.

David Schneider 5:29
So when you can work with somebody who has done a lot of these things and knows where they’re going and understands, you know, these particular judges, what they like, how they feel about certain things. It’s, it’s very, I’m just saying, it’s very important, because, you know, a lot of people try to do these things on their own.

Jerri Hemsworth 5:52
Yeah, I bet.

David Schneider 5:53
And they say, “Oh, I don’t need, you know, the attorney fees or whatever.” And,

Jerri Hemsworth 5:57
Right, right.

David Schneider 5:58
You’re in court, you’re there on your matter, and you’re watching them struggle as they try to get through it, you know. So anyway, it’s important work and and it’s work I enjoy.

Jerri Hemsworth 6:07
How did you get into that, that part of of estate planning law?

David Schneider 6:12
Well, you know, a lot of families were coming to me with, again, kids on the spectrum, and I had to learn very quickly about how to protect those children. Most of these children are still going to outlive their parents. They can’t handle money, they can’t handle property. They’re going to inherit if we don’t do something.

Jerri Hemsworth 6:34
Right.

David Schneider 6:34
So there’s a mechanism in estate planning called a special needs trust, okay? And so we utilize that to restrict the flow of the dough. With the money, the property to the child by holding it in this special trust, and it allows a successor trustee to continue to manage that throughout their life. The assets are not counted against them, so they can’t be bounced out of any government programs that they’re qualifying for. You know, when the kid turns 18, the kid is at the poverty level. So the kid qualifies for, you know, like the EBT food qualifies for Covered California can get housing assistance. Well, these things are based on wealth. So now this child that’s on the spectrum who everything in their life is based on routine that’s so paramount, important to not change the routine.

Jerri Hemsworth 7:32
Yes.

David Schneider 7:32
Well, they inherit. They can’t control it. They don’t have the means, the skills, and then they get bounced out of their programs. So there has to be a method to not let them get that money, but yet have that money for their needs to benefit them, and that’s called a special needs trust. Well, as I started learning more about that, then I had to start to learn more about what their rights were outside of this as the parents were trying to interact with these other institutions, and that’s how I learned about the conservatorship program, and specifically the limited conservatorship program. So it was 20 years ago. It was a little bit of trial and error.

Jerri Hemsworth 8:16
Sure.

David Schneider 8:16
And now it’s just through experience.

Jerri Hemsworth 8:19
Gosh, it’s absolutely amazing. What percentage of your work would you say is probate versus estate planning?

David Schneider 8:27
Well, right now, I’m probably a little bit heavy in probate from what maybe I was a couple of years ago, probably around 30 to 35% maybe it is, frankly, quite stunning, the number of how many families have not planned, and it takes so little to trigger a probate proceeding in the state of California.

Jerri Hemsworth 8:52
Exactly.

David Schneider 8:53
You know, there’s three elements, or three factors that you have to clip. And these are, I describe this to clients as these are “and” rules, you have to have one and two and three.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:05
Gotcha.

David Schneider 9:06
Rule number one, you have to die.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:09
Oh.

David Schneider 9:09
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:10
You do?

David Schneider 9:10
Yeah, and that’s actually not very hard,

Jerri Hemsworth 9:12
That’s a tough one.

David Schneider 9:13
No, it’s not very hard to do, actually.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:14
Oh, okay.

David Schneider 9:15
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:15
Okay, that’s a tough one to get, you know, like, think about too, you know, number one must happen before the others.

David Schneider 9:21
Well, yeah, and you know, if we look at this, the statistics, not just nationwide, but statewide, 10 out of 10 people aged 72 or older are going to die.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:30
Okay, yeah, okay, got it.

David Schneider 9:33
So we know, we know that’s coming. All right. So number one, you have to pass away. Number two, you have to own assets in your own name.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:42
Okay.

David Schneider 9:42
Like the house.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:44
Right.

David Schneider 9:44
You own the house at 123, Apple Street.

Jerri Hemsworth 9:47
Right.

David Schneider 9:48
Number three, the property you own in your own name when you die, must be valued, gross value, not in equity. A 61-5, in real estate or a 184-5 in personal property.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:02
Okay.

David Schneider 10:03
So is there anybody who owns a home in the state of California valued less than 61-5?

Jerri Hemsworth 10:13
No.

David Schneider 10:13
No. I mean, it just doesn’t exist. So,

Jerri Hemsworth 10:16
I mean, my dog, maybe. But you know, his house is small.

David Schneider 10:20
I’ve seen your dog.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:21
Yeah.

David Schneider 10:21
And he looks pretty well off.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:23
He does. He does have creature comforts, that’s for sure.

David Schneider 10:26
So what happens is, is that a lot of families will think, well, you know, I just, I’m just a guy here in the valley, not, not a big deal. My home, I don’t know. It’s like any other home. It’s 1800 square feet. It’s no big deal. But the values of these homes have risen to such a degree. But they have this idea in their mind that, well, an estate plan, that that’s what rich people do.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:50
Right.

David Schneider 10:50
I mean, uses the word estate.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:52
Estate!

David Schneider 10:53
Right.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:53
But you think grand manners.

David Schneider 10:55
A castle and a moat, and that kind of stuff.

Jerri Hemsworth 10:56
Yes, yes dragons, everything!

David Schneider 10:58
So, so the families don’t properly plan.

Jerri Hemsworth 11:02
Yes.

David Schneider 11:02
and then the kid calls me up and says, you know, “I want to sell my home, but I want to sell my parents home, but the title company keeps saying, I need letters. Can you write me some letters?” Letters are what’s issued by the probate court, and so that’s what’s happening there. And it tends to without any kind of set pattern. It tends to ebb and flow a bit. I’ll go through a period of time where I won’t pick up any new cases, and then one week I’ll pick up three. And this is one of those weeks, actually. Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 11:37
Wow, yeah I’m always surprised as as you the number of people who don’t who are afraid of an estate plan because of a, the fees, but B, thinking they don’t need it. And I tell anybody I know, if you own any property of value, you must, because getting caught or we don’t feel the pain if we don’t have the estate.

David Schneider 12:02
Yeah, it’s not our problem.

Jerri Hemsworth 12:04
It’s our it’s our children or our our relative’s. And having been an executor, and have also been, you know, for probates two probates concurrent, and for my parent’s estate, I don’t wish a probate on any child. You know, it’s long, it’s not necessarily painful, but it’s detail oriented, and you’re many times calling debtors and trying to pay off some debts or negotiating and and, but there’s a set time period you can’t rush these things.

David Schneider 12:40
No, no, right now the state average is about a year and a half.

Jerri Hemsworth 12:43
Yes.

David Schneider 12:44
Now I practice in Thousand Oaks. I’m in Ventura County, and so I handle probates in Ventura County. I handle them in LA County. Now, post COVID, I actually handle them throughout the state, because I can appear virtually.

Jerri Hemsworth 12:58
Right.

David Schneider 12:58
But Ventura County has one probate court.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:04
Wow.

David Schneider 13:04
To handle the entire county.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:06
Wow.

David Schneider 13:07
Now in LA County, there’s eight.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:10
Okay.

David Schneider 13:10
Courts.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:11
Okay.

David Schneider 13:11
But it’s a county of 30 million people.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:13
Sure, still trying to follow.

David Schneider 13:14
Follow through this thing, right?

Jerri Hemsworth 13:16
Yeah.

David Schneider 13:16
So when we look at the state average, that says it might take us a year and a half.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:20
Yes.

David Schneider 13:21
Often we’re at two years.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:22
Yeah.

David Schneider 13:23
During which time there are no distributions.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:25
Nope.

David Schneider 13:26
This is when Johnny comes to me and says, “Well, my my dad was paying my tuition.”

Jerri Hemsworth 13:31
Yes.

David Schneider 13:32
Said, “great, Johnny, what I need you to do is focus. I need you to buckle down. I need you to get a job.”

Jerri Hemsworth 13:37
Yeah, because,

David Schneider 13:38
There’s no plan!

Jerri Hemsworth 13:39
Yeah. And the money stops flowing very quickly.

David Schneider 13:43
Exactly, right.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:44
And it can be devastating if somebody didn’t realize it.

David Schneider 13:46
Not not only that, but sometimes we’re going to, then, subsequently, in a in a lump sum, deliver money to somebody who shouldn’t receive it.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:54
Right.

David Schneider 13:55
Notwithstanding, the special needs kids I was talking about.

Jerri Hemsworth 13:58
Right.

David Schneider 13:58
You know, your kid just turned 19, and he’s gonna pick up 800 large in cash?

Jerri Hemsworth 14:03
Yeah.

David Schneider 14:04
Yeah, that’s usually a recipe for success. Yeah. So estate planning is literally something that everybody needs.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:14
So essential.

David Schneider 14:14
Everybody that you know needs this.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:17
Essential.

David Schneider 14:18
Yeah. So it’s,

Jerri Hemsworth 14:19
And updating!

David Schneider 14:21
Well,

Jerri Hemsworth 14:21
I’m learning that too!

David Schneider 14:22
That’s another important point.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:24
Yeah.

David Schneider 14:24
I see a ton of stale documents. Last night, I my last appointment of the day. I met with somebody. The plan was written in 1993.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:33
Hello!

David Schneider 14:33
Never touched.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:35
Oh, oh dear.

David Schneider 14:37
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:37
Okay.

David Schneider 14:38
They said, “Well, can’t you fix those pages?”

Jerri Hemsworth 14:40
No, no, no, no!

David Schneider 14:42
I said, “That’s a lot of pages to fix. I think what we’ll do is we’ll clean it up. We’re not gonna, we’re gonna save the name,”

Jerri Hemsworth 14:50
Right.

David Schneider 14:50
“So, you know, any assets that were titled to it, we don’t have to touch those.”

Jerri Hemsworth 14:53
Right.

David Schneider 14:53
But, yeah, this is a full rewrite. They’re not meant to be set and forget.

Jerri Hemsworth 14:59
Right.

David Schneider 15:00
Put up on the shelf.

Jerri Hemsworth 15:01
Right, that’s exactly what I have learned over time.

David Schneider 15:03
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 15:04
Yes.

David Schneider 15:05
They can grow stale.

Jerri Hemsworth 15:06
Yes, and it’s better to keep them updated as you go, as you acquire or get rid of assets, or it could be even bank accounts, and you don’t even realize, and I’m speaking from experience, that you open a new bank account that has some some cash in it. You should put it probably in the trust.

David Schneider 15:25
Yeah, we want to have as many assets as possible.

Jerri Hemsworth 15:28
Yes.

David Schneider 15:28
Titled in the name of the trust. But you know, when they grow stale, you’ve named these persons to be the trustees.

Jerri Hemsworth 15:36
Right.

David Schneider 15:37
They’re not there anymore. They’ve moved they’ve passed, their own issues,

Jerri Hemsworth 15:43
Right.

David Schneider 15:45
And then I’ll tell you, frankly, this is a problem that came up a couple of times just this last week. The family tells me that they named their husband. He named his brother the beneficiary the life insurance because his children were little and they couldn’t inherit the money.

Jerri Hemsworth 16:04
Right.

David Schneider 16:05
So the brother is going to get the money to take care of the kids, right? I don’t know that that’s right.

Jerri Hemsworth 16:10
Right.

David Schneider 16:11
A, I don’t know your brother. B, if your brother inherits it and he subsequently passes away, it’s going to your nieces and nephews.

Jerri Hemsworth 16:18
Yeah, not to their kids.

David Schneider 16:19
You don’t owe any allegiance to their cousins.

Jerri Hemsworth 16:21
No.

David Schneider 16:22
You don’t. You can’t do that. And when the trust is in place, we could have that money come into the trust. The successor trustee, whether it’s the brother or the sister, whoever it’s going to be, would manage that dough.

Jerri Hemsworth 16:34
Yes.

David Schneider 16:35
And it’s just done.

Jerri Hemsworth 16:37
Yeah, yeah.

David Schneider 16:38
So I see all kinds of interesting things, the ideas that people think up on their own to how they’re going to deal with these issues and um,

Jerri Hemsworth 16:50
and most of the time, not really legally, I bet.

David Schneider 16:52
Well, you know, it’s not as much how legal or illegal, but just here’s something that’s that you might find weird. I look at people in their worst light, not their best light. You actually pay me to think that way.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:13
Sure.

David Schneider 17:14
I’m looking at how your brother is going to screw over his nieces.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:17
Absolutely.

David Schneider 17:18
You know how these friends treat you.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:20
Yes.

David Schneider 17:21
One sibling versus the other.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:22
Yes.

David Schneider 17:23
I’m paid to look at people in their worst way, not their best way, because that’s really the only way I can protect you.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:29
Exactly I can.

David Schneider 17:30
It’s funky that way.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:31
Yes, yeah.

David Schneider 17:32
So um,

Jerri Hemsworth 17:33
Think evilly in order to prevent evil,

David Schneider 17:36
Right, right. You know, it’s just simply being prepared.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:39
Sure, absolutely.

David Schneider 17:40
And so there’s a number of people that will kind of get uncomfortable with that, that look at me cross eyed. How could you even think that about my sister?

Jerri Hemsworth 17:49
Trust me.

David Schneider 17:50
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 17:50
All it takes is mom and dad to die, and suddenly you’re thinking that about your sister.

David Schneider 17:55
Exactly, or better yet, why don’t you come with me to court one day and just sit and watch, you know what’s going on with these people.

Jerri Hemsworth 18:03
Unfortunately.

David Schneider 18:04
So, and then the other the other funny thing is almost to a person, everybody who walks through my front door is coming to see me, because, well, we’re gonna die at some point. We need a plan. And I don’t actually think that, I look at everybody is going to live. What happens if you live? We A.) need to protect this dough for you. You worked for it.

Jerri Hemsworth 18:31
Yes.

David Schneider 18:31
It’s not for your children.

Jerri Hemsworth 18:33
Right.

David Schneider 18:34
Okay? With any luck at all, like we said earlier, you clothed them, you fed them, you educated them, they’ve grown up to succeed you.

Jerri Hemsworth 18:42
Yes.

David Schneider 18:43
And that this is your dough, I’m trying to protect you. But secondly, you might not die. You could become incapacitated.

Jerri Hemsworth 18:53
Yeah, that’s a toughie.

David Schneider 18:55
It is. But the numbers scream at us, one in three persons aged 68 or older will have a significant period of incapacity before the end of the game.

Jerri Hemsworth 19:05
Yes.

David Schneider 19:06
I was working with a client again just yesterday, and he kept steering the conversation back to well, when we die, this and this and this will happen. And it had to be about half a dozen times, and I said,” you might not die,” he says, “But I have a beneficiary designation on this life insurance.” Yes, beneficiaries get paid when you die. What happens when you become incapacitated? How can we access this dough?

Jerri Hemsworth 19:37
Yes.

David Schneider 19:38
So it’s trying to educate the client to think about the future.

Jerri Hemsworth 19:43
Such a good point, David.

David Schneider 19:44
So.

Jerri Hemsworth 19:45
Such a good point. I know when I lost my father and and I was the I was taking care of the trust and and I sold some, some real estate. Um. Family real estate that my mom said, “Yes, go ahead and sell it” and we would literally were never thinking that mom would get sick or or that we thought, okay, now she might be able to live a little bit different. Dad was was not incapacitated, but very limited, and we thought, now she can travel maybe, and she has this little nest egg, and we were literally getting ready to meet with a financial advisor on investing this money from this property. And then my mom got sick, and unfortunately, she passed about 15-16, months after my father.

David Schneider 20:43
Very common.

Jerri Hemsworth 20:44
And, and it was nothing any of us, four children saw coming.

David Schneider 20:48
Right.

Jerri Hemsworth 20:49
Not even we, we and I don’t think mom even saw it coming. I mean, she in and, and so fortunately, my dad, as I say, he woke up dead, passed in his sleep.

David Schneider 21:04
Very, very fortunate.

Jerri Hemsworth 21:05
But my mother did not, and it was fortunately, I had that money to pay for her when she was incapac incapacitated. Yes, because she she outlived the 100 Days of what is it Medicare that pays for,

David Schneider 21:22
Right.

Jerri Hemsworth 21:23
You know.

David Schneider 21:23
It’s very limited.

Jerri Hemsworth 21:24
And then, but she couldn’t go home and live on her own. And suddenly I thought, holy crap, this wasn’t planned for.

David Schneider 21:33
Right.

Jerri Hemsworth 21:34
And if I hadn’t had sold that property, would never have been able to afford her care.

David Schneider 21:41
Right. Most people will tell me, “I want to remain at home. I’d like to remain at home as long as”

Jerri Hemsworth 21:48
Long as possible.

David Schneider 21:49
And most people don’t realize just how impractical that really is.

Jerri Hemsworth 21:54
and now how bloody and expensive that is.

David Schneider 21:58
Tremendous. I was speaking with a friend of mine last week that deals in home healthcare, providing people as companions, people to watch, that help cook and prepare. And she was telling me a number of $22,000 a month. Now, my own mother has to live in assisted living, and her care is roughly $7500 a month. Would she have rather have lived in her home? I believe that that’s true.

Jerri Hemsworth 22:30
Yes.

David Schneider 22:30
Was that actually the best thing for her? No, it wasn’t. She was isolated. She anti social and not eating properly.

Jerri Hemsworth 22:42
Right.

David Schneider 22:42
You know, so at that point it’s you make very difficult decisions.

Jerri Hemsworth 22:47
Yes.

David Schneider 22:48
And you have to put on your big boy pants.

Jerri Hemsworth 22:50
Very big boy pants.

David Schneider 22:51
Explain. These are the facts of life.

Jerri Hemsworth 22:54
Yes.

David Schneider 22:55
I often compare it to raising children.

Jerri Hemsworth 22:58
Yes, yeah.

David Schneider 22:59
You know,

Jerri Hemsworth 22:59
Your parents do become your children.

David Schneider 23:01
Exactly the different client emailed me. So my mom keeps insisting on driving, and she’s a danger to everybody, including manhole cover. And what do I do? Take the keys away? Well, she’s threatening me. I said, why? When your 15 year old threw a tantrum, did you toss him the keys?

Jerri Hemsworth 23:24
Yeah, yeah. yeah.

David Schneider 23:25
You have to step up. This is, believe it or not, what they want you to do.

Jerri Hemsworth 23:31
Yes.

David Schneider 23:31
They just don’t consciously know that today. But when they created these forms, power of attorney, trust, and they said, Jerri, you know, we’re going to put you in charge, because they trusted you. They had confidence in you, that you would be there to act when they couldn’t.

Jerri Hemsworth 23:49
Yes.

David Schneider 23:49
And now that they can’t act, they’re no longer thinking rationally.

Jerri Hemsworth 23:54
Right.

David Schneider 23:54
And the other strange concept that comes into play is that most people are going to say, “well, that’s, you know, that’s when I get older.” Yeah, there’s nothing that says the you know, dementia is generally considered, you know, you know, something that happens when you’re older. But there are many debilitating issues that could cause a person in their 30s or 40s, 50s,

Jerri Hemsworth 24:22
Absolutely.

David Schneider 24:22
To have a lack of capacity.

Jerri Hemsworth 24:25
Sure, sure.

David Schneider 24:25
So,

Jerri Hemsworth 24:26
Strokes hit at every age.

David Schneider 24:28
Absolutely.

Jerri Hemsworth 24:28
You know, and things like that.

David Schneider 24:29
Yeah. So, you know, a lot of the things that I’m dealing with are are breaking down these walls of these preconceived notions of how an estate plan works, or why it works the way it does. And frankly, I spend the bulk of my time with clients teaching.

Jerri Hemsworth 24:47
I bet.

David Schneider 24:47
You know it takes me, of course, time to draft documents and to figure out what they actually want. But if I spend on an average, five hours with a client, almost four of them are teaching.

Jerri Hemsworth 25:00
Gotcha.

David Schneider 25:01
You know, this is why we’re doing it. An educated client is the best client. Educated clients do two things really well. They follow instructions. They follow through. I create the trust, I help title the home and the trust. But you have to go the bank, you have to go the brokerage, house, life insurance, like when I need you to do it, and if you don’t understand it, you don’t have the motivation, you don’t see the end game. So an educated client follows through. The second thing I love about educated clients, they refer.

Jerri Hemsworth 25:35
Nice. Yeah. You’re right.

David Schneider 25:36
Well, you they tell somebody else. You know what, Dave did a good job. He broke it down. I understand it. You got to go see my friend Dave.

Jerri Hemsworth 25:45
Nice.

David Schneider 25:46
So.

Jerri Hemsworth 25:46
Yeah.

David Schneider 25:46
It helps feed itself.

Jerri Hemsworth 25:49
Dave, I’m gonna switch around. What do you do when you’re not in your law firm and you’re not practicing law? What is your favorite hobby?

David Schneider 25:58
Well, my favorite hobby is probably poker.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:02
Poker?

David Schneider 26:03
I play poker.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:06
Do you now?

David Schneider 26:07
Yes.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:09
Oh!

David Schneider 26:09
Yeah. In fact, we’re getting ready, planning our vacations, or, I should say, my vactions.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:14
I was gonna say, “our?”

David Schneider 26:16
No. That’s why, in June, there’s a couple of weeks where my wife becomes the poker widow and I go off to the World Series of Poker.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:28
Do you?

David Schneider 26:29
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:30
That’s amazing.

David Schneider 26:31
I have that coming up. I have a couple of weeks scheduled, a week there, week back, week there again.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:36
And where’s it at?

David Schneider 26:37
This is in Las Vegas.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:39
Of course.

David Schneider 26:39
Yeah, at the Horseshoe.

Jerri Hemsworth 26:40
Okay.

David Schneider 26:41
And they’ll cycle hundreds of 1000s of people through these various tournaments. And I’ve got four different tournaments I’ve got pegged on my calendar that I’m going to play. And you know, for the last several years, I’ve been playing for a long time, but last several years, I’ve kind of put a little bit more focus on tournament play. I love to play for cash. That’s really,

Jerri Hemsworth 27:05
Well, yeah, hello.

David Schneider 27:06
You know, let’s go sit down,

Jerri Hemsworth 27:07
Who wouldn’t right if you got skills.

David Schneider 27:09
Yeah, go, go, take somebody else’s money. But the two summers ago, in one of the senior events, there was about 3800 players, and I finished 36.

Jerri Hemsworth 27:21
Are you kidding?

David Schneider 27:22
No, no, and then

Jerri Hemsworth 27:23
Okay, so you’re not like a schlub at this.

David Schneider 27:25
No, no, I have a little bit of experience.

Jerri Hemsworth 27:28
Okay, all right.

David Schneider 27:30
I’ve been playing as a serious amateur for about 20 years.

Jerri Hemsworth 27:35
Holy smokes. How’d you get into this?

David Schneider 27:39
I’m not really sure exactly, I think I stumbled upon it, found that I was good, kind of mucked my way around. And then when the poker boom came,

Jerri Hemsworth 27:53
Yeah, yeah.

David Schneider 27:53
I’d already played for a while. But when that came, way back in 2003 I started actually studying.

Jerri Hemsworth 28:00
Whoa.

David Schneider 28:01
And, you know, figuring out,

Jerri Hemsworth 28:03
Right.

David Schneider 28:03
Where the game was going. And it just is kind of a natural flow. I will tell you, a lot of attorneys play poker. I think it has to do with some of the training that we get our attention to detail, getting between the lines. It’s not uncommon for,

Jerri Hemsworth 28:21
Reading people.

David Schneider 28:22
Reading people. It’s not uncommon for me to sit at a game and there might be two or three other lawyers at the table.

Jerri Hemsworth 28:29
Really?

David Schneider 28:30
So that’s very common.

Jerri Hemsworth 28:32
Now, are you one of those players that dons the hat, the sunglasses so people can’t see your eyeballs?

David Schneider 28:39
I used to wear the glasses a lot.

Jerri Hemsworth 28:43
Why am I not surprised? I can see you.

David Schneider 28:47
well a couple of times when I’ve been in studios where there’s bright lights, I’ll still wear them.

Jerri Hemsworth 28:56
Yeah.

David Schneider 28:58
Actually, since, since the pandemic, when the poker rooms opened back up, I stopped wearing the glasses. I just felt it was changing people’s perception of me in a way that no longer fit what I wanted to tell them. Often I’m one of the older guys at the table, so I have a there’s a preconceived notion as to who I am and how I might play the game, and then wearing the glasses was counterintuitive.

Jerri Hemsworth 29:31
Interesting.

David Schneider 29:32
I’d rather be thought of. You know, there’s some people at these tables, “Hey, Papa, how are you?”

Jerri Hemsworth 29:37
Yeah.

David Schneider 29:38
Yeah, no, I’m fine. Thank you. And they put a stereotype on me how I might play, and then I can use that to my advantage.

Jerri Hemsworth 29:47
Sure.

David Schneider 29:47
Well, the glasses are actually like I said, opposite to that.

Jerri Hemsworth 29:50
Gotcha.

David Schneider 29:51
So,

Jerri Hemsworth 29:53
Yeah. So do you show up in T shirt and sweats?

David Schneider 29:56
Usually actually, funny enough I have, well, not sweats, I’m not a sweats guy, but I often have a jacket that has some kind of racing emblems on it, because, if I have to name a second hobby, it’s Corvette Racing.

Jerri Hemsworth 30:14
Okay,

David Schneider 30:15
and so,

Jerri Hemsworth 30:16
Hence the bright blue Corvette sitting in the driveway.

David Schneider 30:19
Yes, I drove it because it’s Friday.

Jerri Hemsworth 30:20
Yeah, it’s Friday! Corvette Friday!

David Schneider 30:24
So, so I but they’re very casual.

Jerri Hemsworth 30:27
Okay, yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. My The reason I asked that is I learned about that technique from my mother in law, who she she had money, but she had an affinity for garage sales.

David Schneider 30:42
Okay, yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 30:43
She called them Saturday stores.

David Schneider 30:45
Sure, sure.

Jerri Hemsworth 30:46
And her delio was never wear nice clothes and always take a coin purse filled with coins, not dollar bills.

David Schneider 30:54
Right. You can make change.

Jerri Hemsworth 30:55
Exactly. And sort of it was the stereotype. It was sort of the perception. And I said, well, then stop showing up in your damn Mercedes, you know, let’s take my Honda. You know, that kind of stuff.

David Schneider 31:09
Exactly so similar.

Jerri Hemsworth 31:10
Yes, yes, but oh my gosh, I did not know that about you.

David Schneider 31:15
Yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 31:15
That’s fantastic. So how many times do you play in a week would you say?

David Schneider 31:21
Right now, I play one day a week.

Jerri Hemsworth 31:23
Okay.

David Schneider 31:23
I usually will play on Saturday nights. I’ll drive into the city and play in our real casino.

Jerri Hemsworth 31:29
All right.

David Schneider 31:30
I’ll often talk to people, and they’ll ask about this, and “oh well, you know, we have a game. We have a Friday night game, you know, the guys. And we do this, we play, you know, 50 cent, dollar” or whatever. “And you ought to come and come and play.” “Well, you know, maybe, maybe I can find some, some time to do that.” “Where do you like to play?” “Well, I’m usually playing the 5-5-10, down at Gardens or Commerce and, you know, or in the series, I love to play it there.” “Yeah, you’re not invited.”

Jerri Hemsworth 32:02
Oh.

David Schneider 32:03
I get uninvited to more games.

Jerri Hemsworth 32:05
Too serious. You’re too good.

David Schneider 32:07
Well, it’s they don’t know because they never played.

Jerri Hemsworth 32:10
Sure, sure.

David Schneider 32:13
Funny enough. A little bit before the pandemic, I was playing a lot, and it literally started to become a job. And I said, Well, wait a minute, I don’t need this. I work for a living.

Jerri Hemsworth 32:25
Yeah.

David Schneider 32:26
And, and so I cut back, and I’m happier doing it.

Jerri Hemsworth 32:31
Yeah, I bet.

David Schneider 32:31
And, you know, I stepped up a level of the game at the stakes that I’m playing. And it’s more enjoyable and more often than not their winners, not not every time. That’s usually a long drive home, you know, as I’m,

Jerri Hemsworth 32:50
Suddenly the route seems so much longer.

David Schneider 32:53
I’m pounding the ceiling. Why? Why did I play that hand that way? And,

Jerri Hemsworth 32:57
No, I shouldn’t have done that.

David Schneider 32:58
Yeah, and, you know? And that’s, that’s something, you know, I I study the game, and I’m reading and I’m working it out, and I remember hands. I go home, and I’ll talk to him with somebody else about it. “Hey, you know, this is what I did. What do you think, you know, here, there?” And yes, there’s a hand, actually, from this last Saturday that’s haunting me still.

Jerri Hemsworth 33:21
Ohhh.

David Schneider 33:21
So I really got to get it out of my head.

Jerri Hemsworth 33:23
PTSD.

David Schneider 33:24
Little bit. It’s about a $3,000 mistake.

Jerri Hemsworth 33:28
Ouchy. Yeah, do you keep a separate account for your funny money?

David Schneider 33:32
Yes, yes.

Jerri Hemsworth 33:33
Nice.

David Schneider 33:33
I have only that money. And you know my wife, you know, bless her, she truly understands, and she knows that that’s not the house money, it’s not the rent money. You know that that’s that and, and,

but you do give her a percentage, I have to imagine, I give her everything she asks for.

Jerri Hemsworth 33:52
Toleration percentage.

David Schneider 33:53
Everything she asks for. You want this? You want that? Whatever the heck it is, but you know it the $100 bills.

Jerri Hemsworth 34:04
Yes.

David Schneider 34:04
They’re tools, and it’s just the same as the tools that are in your tool chest. This is what I need to go do that, and with any luck at all, I’m going to bring home more than I took with me. And I do more often than not.

Jerri Hemsworth 34:20
Nice.

David Schneider 34:20
But yeah, there are some, some knots.

Jerri Hemsworth 34:23
Yeah.

David Schneider 34:23
And so Sunday morning, you know, we are going out to brunch, and she will eventually, sooner or later, ask, “Well, how did it go?”

Jerri Hemsworth 34:31
How did it go?

David Schneider 34:32
And, you know, she’s kind of, she kind of knows the vibe she, you know, if I haven’t said something, she says, yes, so last night wasn’t…

Jerri Hemsworth 34:42
Wasn’t very productive?

David Schneider 34:44
And frankly, I think that she’d be a really good player. She knows.

Jerri Hemsworth 34:48
Yeah.

David Schneider 34:48
Because she listens.

Jerri Hemsworth 34:49
Sure, oh yeah. We absorb a lot from what you guys emit.

David Schneider 34:53
Yeah. But you know, when we go to Vegas together on a holiday, her thing is the spa and the shop.

Jerri Hemsworth 35:01
Yeah, sign me up.

David Schneider 35:02
And then then

Jerri Hemsworth 35:03
Yup.

David Schneider 35:03
I go play cards.

Jerri Hemsworth 35:04
You go play cards.

David Schneider 35:05
So I can go pay for the spa in the shop.

Jerri Hemsworth 35:07
Well, damn. You better win! Because it’s probably more than one trip.

David Schneider 35:11
Well, yeah, and I’m not beyond telling the other person at the table.

Jerri Hemsworth 35:16
Yes!

David Schneider 35:17
Hey guys,

Jerri Hemsworth 35:18
Do me a solid. I got the wife in the spa.

David Schneider 35:20
My wife’s at the spa. She’s over at Caesars mall, so I raise.

Jerri Hemsworth 35:27
Oh David, thank you so much for sitting with me today. This is such a great, great time. And I love learning. Every time I talk to you, I learn more and more about what you do. And it’s great, great to hear. You write great articles, and they’re one of our most highly trafficked articles on the website at Echelonprofessional.com and keep it up. It’s very, very much needed and commendable. So thank you.

David Schneider 35:58
Well, thanks. Thanks for having me, terrific questions. And, you know, if I could just say one last thing.

Jerri Hemsworth 36:06
Please.

David Schneider 36:06
It’s about, everybody wants to go out and earn a living, but I get to enjoy earning my living. So that’s, that’s the part.

Jerri Hemsworth 36:15
That’s what we should all strive for.

David Schneider 36:17
Yeah, yeah.

Jerri Hemsworth 36:17
Thank you. Thank you for that.

David Schneider 36:19
Yeah, my pleasure.

Announcer 36:32
Presented by Echelon Business Development, more than just networking, way more.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai