Tax Matters Specialty Group Podcast with Gary Weiss—Kristen Hafner

Announcer  0:00 
The Echelon Radio Network presents the tax matters radio podcast a conversation about money for everyone with your host Gary Weiss.

Gary Weiss  0:18 
Welcome to the Echelon Tax Matters specialty group podcast. I’m your host Gary Weiss. This podcast has been designed to cover a wide range of topics. It is not a podcast designed for tax professionals. It’s a podcast written and developed for those of us impacted by the complex, lengthy and confusing tax laws. Taxes of all kinds are part of our everyday life. And this podcast is a way to bring you relevant, easy to understand and very relatable topics to help you make informed decisions when you begin your journey through the mystic labyrinth of rules and regulations. Just in case you want to know I am a licensed CPA in California since 1996. And I practice it woodland hills with my partner, Quinton staples. I also specialize in tax resolution services you know back taxes unfiled returns evil notices from various alphabet soup people from the government. Hence my tag I fight the fascist state of California and the evil empire known as the IRS. So the time has come to begin our whimsical and lighthearted pilgrimage down the rabbit hole of the unknown yet exhilarating, and endorphin filled quest for knowledge. Today’s guest is Kristin Hafner of Financial Moxie. Welcome Kristin to our podcast.

Kristen Hafner  1:42 
Thank you, Gary having me today.

Gary Weiss  1:45 
Great. I do have one question that everything’s gonna be on everybody’s mind. Financial Moxie. Tell us what that means.

Kristen Hafner  1:52 
Well, when I originally started the company about 15 years ago, I was trying to find a word that would appeal to everyone. And I’m big on the concept of education. And so Moxie for me means know how. And so financial know how is where the company launched and the culture launch from. The original Moxie was actually a soft drink in the way back in the 50s. That was where the word came from. Not just what was in the drink. It was a competitor to Coke, but obviously Coke one.

Gary Weiss  2:29 
Yeah, otherwise we’d have you know, different today. You know, Moxie, Moxie. Got it. Thank you for that enlightenment. So tell us a little bit about you as a person, your background, your family, let us let the listeners know who you are.

Kristen Hafner  2:42 
Well, I grew up in the Midwest, most of my childhood in a large family. My father was one of nine brothers and sisters, and I have probably over 40 plus cousins. When I went to nice Thanksgiving, exactly. When I went to college, I started out in Michigan. And then I, my dad took a job in California, so why not come to sunny California, and transfer into a UC school here. And I’ve never gone back. So I’ve actually been in California longer than than Michigan. I have. I have two children. I just launched them into college this year, which has been exciting to see them take off. One of them was, you know, on through the COVID period, lost a lot of his high school and first years in college, but it’s exciting to see him at a four year institution thriving right now. And my freshman daughter is also thriving as well.

Gary Weiss  3:47 
Excellent, so are they are they out of the house? Yeah, they’re out of the house, empty nesters and you got your nice big house all to yourself, as you know, lots of time. Great. All right. So tell us at this point, we now know what financial Moxie means great. So tell us what you do as a financial planner, and you know, that type of stuff. And you know what, how you can provide services and how the listeners can benefit from your services?

Kristen Hafner  4:12 
Well, I don’t I don’t have a normal path as a financial planner, I was a career changer. I came, I came out of undergrad, went in and did my Masters in Business at CSUN. And then decided I was trying to decide whether I wanted to go into law or what other advanced degree I was wanting to do. And so it did take some time as a legal document assistant at some, you know, doing all different types of law. And I quickly realized the biggest reason why people had legal issues was because of financial either issues or things that they didn’t pay attention to. So that’s where I that’s when I decided to go down this path of looking at a financial service As his career, and I went one day on just a whim to Cal Lutheran and interviewed, I didn’t know at the time I was interviewing, but with a professor who specialized in behavioral finance, and he hired me as grad assistant on the spot. And then I went down the path of learning how to be a certified financial planner.

Gary Weiss  5:24 
So what is it? What did you learn there from behavioral science and people in their fine in their, how they invest, why they invest, or how they handle their finances, which we all know, for a lot of people as I know, as a tax resolution specialist is poor.

Kristen Hafner  5:37 
Right. And it’s emotionally driven. I did not realize at the time how it was an it was amazing time to be working for this professor who has a PhD in investments in behavioral finance, because it was a couple years before the crash and 2008. He had always his research that I was working on was about what would happen when fear and uncertainty hit the market. So when it hit in 2008, and I was working with him, and just starting out in my career, it was everything he had said was gonna happen happen to the market. Since then, I have never seen a normal market.

Gary Weiss  6:22 
Okay, so when you finally went out on your own, and you started, you know, talking to people and say, Hey, this is what I do, what did you say to them? How did you? How did you, you know, inspire them to use your services.

Kristen Hafner  6:35 
Interestingly enough, I started as an analyst, and the and that the point of that was to not as a full advisor was to figure out the industry. And what was really interesting to me is the confusion, the lack of transparency, what products were being deemed suitable, all of that kind of went out the window. When we had that downturn in 2008, the things that were being recommended prior to that, no longer were suitable for most people. So risk tolerance became my top priority. People don’t really know their risk, until they have some, when the market does what it did in 2008, they don’t really know what their true risk is, until the party is kind of over. Alright, so

Gary Weiss  7:27 
it for let’s, let’s move ahead a few years, and now you’re on your own and you know, you’ve got a body of knowledge behind you and experience. So who is it who’s a good client for you? And how do you deal with them.

Kristen Hafner  7:42 
Um, I like to work with clients that want to be involved in their financial selves. If a client comes to me and says, Hey, I just want you to pick stocks, and look at, you know, what the next best stock is, that’s not the client that I’m searching for. When I invest my time, and working as a financial planner with them, I want to educate them, help them with making decisions. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen that commercial that one of the, you know, famous or financial institution is where they have the green line and says, if you have this number, you’re okay in retirement, that I don’t believe that to be true, because it’s all the decisions that you make, up until that point on whether that number is going to be suitable. So, you know, financial decisions, people want to avoid it.

Gary Weiss  8:34 
So I assume you have all the necessary credentials, and, you know, certificates and, you know, passed all the tests. So that’s great. So people come to you, but you know, the average person comes to you and says, I know nothing, Kristen. I, you know, let’s take a sip, typical example, I know that you and I have worked with, you know, the husband dies, there’s $4 million in various phases, that’s the estate, and they go, come to you and go, What do I do? I have no clue. My husband always did this. And I haven’t got a clue what to do. What do you say to them?

Kristen Hafner  9:11 
Typically, I advise them in the first year after a death of a spouse not to make any major decisions, if possible. So it’s not about making aggressive moves or changes in any of the positions that they’re receiving. It’s about educating them on what how those how those tools work together. That when you have different financial investments that have different ways that they work together, if you don’t understand that you can miss that pretty quick, quickly and make a decision that will impact you long term, so we recommend no big decisions unless they have to be made. We could quickly form a team of advisors that they’ll need moving forward because usually after a death If the spouse who has it wasn’t a control of those things, doesn’t really have a relationship with those advisors that they had jointly. And then also, a lot of times, it’s just acting like a get a gatekeeper. To make sure people don’t take advantage of them.

Gary Weiss  10:15 
But tell us also so you have this woman that comes to you, she’s let’s just say she’s in her mid 60s, her husband has just died. And she’s not coming to you and say, hi, Kristen, hi, good, I have these things. Can you help me? She’s coming to emotional, she doesn’t know what to do. She’s lost. You know, she’s fighting this, you know, all this information being through how do you? How do you get initially past that? How do you help these type of women emotionally?

Kristen Hafner  10:40 
Well, it’s a fine line. If you push too hard, or with too much information, they begin to shut down, there’s still a grieving process that they’re going through. So we have to handle the matters that we have to handle in the moment, and then start to push to that planning phase. But it’s very, it’s a very sequential process of and customized to the where the client is, I have to meet them where they’re at. And there was handholding involved. I mean, there’s a lot of things that it could be as little as they didn’t know that they had to register the vehicles, that they have to change the registration than on the registration or take the person off. One of the most common mistakes, when you lose a spouse is you don’t realize that you have to take them off the loan, and apply for that because you may lose your home insurance. So there’s just there’s a lot of moving parts. And if you try to do that all at once with them. Especially if there’s some sort of probate going on at the same time simultaneously, they will tend to shut down and not respond. So we have to make it a positive. A positive where they they feel like they’re in somewhat in control, but they’re also learning at the same time.

Gary Weiss  11:56 
Okay, for those who don’t know, as Kristen mentioned, probate, probate occurs when you die, and you have assets and they’re not in a trust or there is no will, or they’re not registered as community property assets. When that happens, you have to go to probate, which is a court like any other court and you have to get a probate attorney and you have to go in and probate what’s called probate the estate so that all the assets can be transferred. So it just enough just for now people know what probate is. But let’s talk about the T. So when you have when you say I’m going to bring in a team, who is the team in how do you choose that team for this individual?

Kristen Hafner  12:34 
Typically, the first conversation we I have with them is if they have support from family, meaning adult children or other siblings that they may have that are supportive emotionally, if, if they’re still struggling, then we talk about therapy to make sure they actually have a therapist on board to to be able to talk or some sort of support group, then we move into a tax professional, a CPA estate planning attorney, which is someone that helps them with navigate through the probate process myself, a financial advisor. And also, the other thing would be if there’s a business involved, we may need a business attorney as well, I have a case right now where everything was handled in the state properly and was was set up to avoid probate. But the husband refused to put his practice his medical practice into the trust. And so that portion of the of the estate had to go through probate.

Gary Weiss  13:38 
Okay, so let’s talk about trusts for a moment. For those who don’t know, trust is a living trust. It’s where you put, you create an entity and you put all your assets in it. And there’s a whole bunch of conditions about who gets what what happens when this happens. And this is really important. Trusts are one of probably one of the most important things you can do. When you have an estate of any even 500 above 500,000. and above, it’s really important. And so you know, because that’s where you put your durable power of attorney for health care, you put your do not resuscitate the DNR construct who gets what when this person dies, a whole whole bunch of stuff that can happen that saves a lot of that emotional turmoil that Kristen’s talking about. So tell us how when there is a trust, how do you interact with the trust and you know that, you know, the trustees, those are the people in charge of the trust beneficiaries, those the people who get the stuff, and then the people on the outside who say I should have been a beneficiary.

Kristen Hafner  14:38 
So I usually when I work with the spouse, the surviving spouse, I will look at everything, make sure that we’re able there’s beneficiaries assigned that we’re able to change title first, and we don’t have any issues there. But I really focus on the new normal, which is the cash what they’re spending What, what they’re now going to be responsible for, because typically, when a surviving spouse has lost some sort of form of income, you know, you and I talk about this a lot, when you don’t get double Social Security, you know, you get, you get some sort of social security’s a little bit higher. So it does impact what income is coming in. And then a lot of times, the surviving spouse is is like very fearful of the investments and the volatility, and you know, where the income is going to come from. So the starting point is to look at what they need, and what’s their expectation, and then look at all the assets and things that they have in place and determine how we can make that fit the decline in income. But a lot of people jump to the investments first, and they’re like, Oh, we got to handle all this. And I always put my, I always stop them, because they don’t know what those investments need to do, unless we start with a budget.

Gary Weiss  16:00 
Okay, so when you talk about investments, and you talk about their whole estate, so you deal with it as an entirety, one piece in your in there has multiple moving parts inside of it. So let’s, let’s just talk about investments. Because people, you know, right now everything is with the market, and you know, the economy, people are asking, wow, what do I do? I don’t know. So when you talk about investments, and you talk about volatility, how do you deal with that with clients? Not just, you know, the the woman who’s up, but in general, I know, you have lots of different clients that you know, that throughout your practice, so how do you deal with when they come to you and say, Christian, I can’t, I can’t do it, I need to know, go buy, go buy Tesla, go buy this, you know, I go by, you know, this, and they’re trying to, you know, they’re throwing things at you. How do you handle that?

Kristen Hafner  16:46 
Well, it’s we start with looking at what their needs are, and a lot of times when they get anxiety over their investments is, is because they don’t have any kind of emergency or backup plan or emergency funds. So I work really hard with clients, before issues happened in the market or volatility uncertainty happens the market to make sure they have those emergency funds available, so that when these things happen in the market, which are normal, they can access those reserves and not have the urge to pull out of the market. And that’s the thing about behavioral finance is when, when the market gets at all time lows, people feel the need to jump, you know, to sell out of the market, when the market is an all time high, people feel the need to get into the market. And really, when financial advisors are working or planners not that are just are focusing on the whole picture. It’s about talking to them about how do they stay consistent on their path and their journey and make the decisions and not make those aggressive moves that are going to prevent them from being successful in the long term.

Gary Weiss  18:02 
Great. So one of the things that’s coming up right now, and we’re going to discuss this real quickly, I don’t want to spend a lot of time but you know, one of the big Netflix series is made off. Now made off is the specifics of it aren’t as important as more as what happened. Not with me enough. But in general with the markets in the 2008, seven timeframe with the mortgage crashes, what happened?

Kristen Hafner  18:24 
So, in 2008, I was just starting in the industry, so I was learning as much as everyone else. But the subprime market, there was, I guess, if you think about it as a contagion or some sort of cancer, it actually started from within the system. And and it came from within and went out into all the financial markets into in the US. And so we saw a downturn in both the bond market and the equity market. There was an there was an act of recession. Now, what we’re seeing globally with what’s going on now, is we have that contagion, contagion, or from the outside, which is the pandemic that actually shut down the system. So, you know, recessions come and go, it’s it’s something that is normal, but we do, we’re tied globally. So these things like pandemics and the mortgage, subprime market, things that are tied very tightly or inside these financial systems will cause havoc and uncertainty. The biggest thing I’ve learned in my career of not experiencing a normal market is that uncertainty on any level is going to cause volatility in the system.

Gary Weiss  19:42 
Absolutely. So do youth what is going to prevent that happening again? Do you think there are are there processes in place that will help prevent the you know, things like made off or the meltdown in 2008? Is there something in place, it’s going to protect the average investor.

Kristen Hafner  20:03 
That’s that’s a loaded question. But I can say as a as an advisor, there’s regulation, new regulation coming out always. And the Securities and license, they’re they’re improving that regulation always. It’s, it’s, it’s really about finding when you’re working with somebody or a company or a financial institution, the word fiduciary, and a lot of people don’t understand what that means is that whoever you’re working with, in this capacity, who’s licensed, it’s in your best interest to have, they also be a fiduciary, which means that they’re doing what’s in your best interest. Their decisions aren’t motivated by any kind of compensation. They’re looking at a level playing field of what is what is in your best interest and being totally transparent on the car, the Commission’s or the fees, and whether the product is suitable for them to participate in.

Gary Weiss  21:03 
So when a client comes to you like today, they announced Google’s laying off at you know, a ton of people, Microsoft laid off a ton of people. And the, the average investor comes to you and says, Hey, Kristen, is this should I be unloading all my Microsoft, Google alphabet stock? You know, all my all my text? I should be unloading them? Hey, look, they’re laying off everybody. You know, Twitter, you know, whatever Twitter did? That’s Elon Musk. But how do you handle that? What do you say to those people, where, you know, the big word we you and I talk about all the time is trust. And American public, the investor, the average person on the street is losing as lost trust not losing, it’s lost? So how do you deal with that?

Kristen Hafner  21:45 
Well, it’s a relationship. I mean, a lot the clients I work with, I work with them on all levels. It’s not just on the investment side, I’m like working on the planning the budgeting decisions on daily decisions, you know, down to even sometimes their children come to you, and they’re just starting out, you know, and helping them decide what they’re going to do moving forward in their new venture post college or post secondary education. So it’s, when they come to me, it’s, it’s really we focused on? Yes, this is where we are in the markets, and this is the uncertainty. But are we set up with the proper reserves? And are they okay? And are they going to be able to weather through this, if a client understands what they’re invested in, understands the path that they’re moving forward on, they’ll be less likely to be concerned or make a bad decision based on emotion. But every time I talk to a client, about a financial decision, we can put all the numbers into a financial plan, look at them, and the computer will tell us whether this decision is going to have a financial gain or if I get a financial loss, right. But there’s also emotional wealth tied to that decision. So for example, if I have a client who’s considering relocating to be closer to family, and on paper, it doesn’t look, it does cause some financial decline with their money over time. That that emotional wealth of being close to family and having that support, if they have a medical event is worth more. So we have those discussions, always we talk about the pros and the cons. We talk about the emotional wealth of that decision. And I do my best to inform them if they make this decision. What What would you know, be the pitfalls that they would have to go through? No,

Gary Weiss  23:39 
it sounds really good. Alright, so one of the things that people are concerned with is, you know, the mark the other markets and the other part of the world, China, you know, the European Union, the other big economies. So how do you deal with that? Do we integrate that? Do you talk to your clients about you know, the global world?

Kristen Hafner  24:01 
Yes. So when I worked for the, as a grad assistant for the PhD and investing, he had us do this really interesting exercise where our students, we picked a portfolio with intention, and we picked a portfolio at random. And I think out of the 20 plus students in the class, the portfolio random beat the portfolios with intention. Now, obviously, we were all new to this, you know, so whatever fundamentals we chose to pick that portfolio and with intention could have been weak. But his his, his lesson to us was, it’s very hard to always beat the market, right? It’s always even these high level money managers, it’s super difficult to do that. Really, it’s about being consistent in your investments and making sure your portfolios are at a risk tolerance that you’re gonna stay consistent in investing. So When I, it’s just a, it’s it. It’s a belief of mine that if you’re comfortable with what you’re invested in, and you’re comfortable with your financial self, and you pay enough attention to it, then that’s where you’re gonna get the long term growth over time. Great.

Gary Weiss  25:15 
So in in your dealings, people have investments in their regular fidelity account, or TD Ameritrade or whatever the account is. But they also have their IRAs for ones, how do you deal with, you know, dac tax deferred accounts and taxable accounts, and you know, how they interact together and how they affect the tax position?

Kristen Hafner  25:36 
Well, that’s interesting, because clients don’t understand, basically, what I’m trying to do with them, if if they come to me early enough, in prior to retirement, is creating that that set of tools. So you don’t want to have all your eggs in one basket. So you don’t want to have all your money in pre tax or retirement money, you want to be able to have some post tax investments, you want to have some tax free. So it’s really about working with them, establishing those buckets, if you if you could say have different types of investments at different tax, you know, a different tax consequences. And then once they’re in retirement help helping them navigate where they’re gonna pull from, and that’s working with a CPA and making sure that that tax efficiency is there. At when we’re starting to pull the income out, clients don’t understand, really, when you start when you’re in the accumulation phase, and they’re just accumulating, they don’t understand the difference between you know, pre tax and post tax or after tax unless they get hit with a big tax bill, and they come to you.

Gary Weiss  26:42 
Right, but do you help them so they have an IRA, they inherit an IRA, or they, you know, they had an IRA for years. And as a CPA, one of the things I’ve tried to teach my clients is an IRA is just a form of entity that the government has created the underlying assets in that are different than an IRA people, well, I’ve got an IRA, I’m investing in an IRA, no, you’re not you have assets sitting in an IRA that you need to invest. So how do you help them with that?

Kristen Hafner  27:11 
Well, the biggest issue that I see when they come to me is they tend to have them in all different places, you know, they may have changed employment, or they started one here, they started one there. And when I sit with them, I talk about consolidating some of these things. But there’s, there’s some really strict rules in our industry, when, when you deal with qualified accounts, or retirement accounts, IRAs and 401, K’s you have to as a fiduciary, as a certified financial planner, I have to go in there. And if I’m going to consolidate something, or move something out into something else, or make a decision, I have to make sure the client, it’s in their best interest and make sure that if I take if a 401k is at a certain fee structure, I’m putting them in something that’s comparable. So that is one of the regulatory things that the the Securities Regulatory agencies have really, really, really tightened up on is that decision process of consolidation or advising in that space?

Gary Weiss  28:08 
I can see it right now, when you’re talking to a client, and you said fee. They’re going to fee what does that mean? What does I fee? I’m confused? What do you mean, somebody’s taking some of my money? How do you explain to them that for somebody to manage it, it there’s a fee and how they handle it?

Kristen Hafner  28:25 
Yeah, it’s interesting, because fees, that’s one of the things when I career change into this industry. There’s so many different fee structures out there different ways that fees can be expense that, in my opinion, it’s very difficult for the everyday investor to understand so and they don’t know what to ask, basically. So it’s my job to make sure that I’m fully transparent on those. And so a lot of times the actual investment if you’re, if you’re investing in a mutual fund, or an ETF or something that’s managed actively, it has a fee loaded inside of it.

Gary Weiss  29:07 
We’re explaining what does it mean to have a fee loaded inside of it?

Kristen Hafner  29:10 
Well, there’s a cost for those for the lake. So if you have a fund, that’s managed by a big institution, they charge a fee to manage that fund. So all of their management, all the boots they have on the ground globally, that that fee is what they charge, and so you don’t necessarily, per se see that fee, unless your advisor discloses it, and then there’s a fee for the advisor. And, you know, it should be all disclosed at the time that you go and make that decision to work with that individual. And it’s interesting. It’s interesting because I am of the opinion that the financial industry is moving towards a hybrid model where you will charge the advisors or the professionals will charge fee Use for assets right? under management. And that’s usually a percentage based on value. Or you will be charged a fee for the financial planning or a combination of the two together. But the biggest thing I tell clients, because I get this all the time, even if they’re not working with me is what should I ask my financial advisor? And that’s one of my, one of my top top questions is what am I getting? And for, you know, what fee? Am I paying for that advice? So you should know if you’re paying a fee for planning and the fee that you’re paying for assets, and how does that all work together?

Gary Weiss  30:34 
Okay, so let’s talk about a change subjects. Let’s talk about what is sort of on a lot of people’s mind crypto, what does that mean? in it? Can you explain why that in tax purposes is an investment, and it’s not treated as money?

Kristen Hafner  30:52 
Well, so crypto is a sensitive subject, because with being licensed with the federal government, I can even advise on crypto, I can educate on crypto and we have education, but I can’t, I can’t hold it. And I can’t advise people on it. So that crypto is kind of an area that really concerns me as an advisor. Because if I can’t advise on it, and I can’t, and I can only educate on it. I worry where the clients are getting their advice from and and so the one thing though, that you bring up about the taxes, a lot of them don’t understand that even though they hold crypto in their portfolio, they still have to there’s a tax on it because it’s tax like a property. And maybe you could talk to that a little bit of how it’s taxed.

Gary Weiss  31:45 
I don’t want to get into me, but yeah, it’s you treat it like you would sell a stock or bond and has capital gains. But one of the big things and I warn everybody, I’m warning all my clients, you must disclose on your tax return. If you have crypto transactions or crypto holdings, don’t think oh, I’m just not going to check the button. And they’ll never know, that’s a client’s to say I’m not going to give you my bank account information to make the auto deposit because I don’t want the IRS to know and we all juggle, juggle juggle. Yeah, they already know Don’t worry about it. So I don’t want to get you in any more trouble.

Kristen Hafner  32:15 
No, it’s okay. I mean, the other thing I wanted to say because I do have a specialty in working with divorce planning. So crypto is difficult when you’re when you go through a divorce, because it’s really hard to find documentation or disclosure on it. So that that is a challenge. It’s a challenge across the board, even if there’s a death or if a spouse is a spouse is going to inherit crypto, they need to know the information.

Gary Weiss  32:42 
Right? So for with divorce, you would prefer you know, what you the out spouse or in spouse Don’t worry with that means the husband or wife come to you during the process? Not the end of it to help them through it correct?

Kristen Hafner  32:53 
Yes, there’s a lot of pre planning.

Gary Weiss  32:56 
Pre-planning and what does that mean? How does that help them.

Kristen Hafner  33:00 
So I have a designation called the certified divorce financial analyst, a lot of people note are not aware of that. And so they individuals that have that designation, act as a financial analyst for the divorce. And so a lot of it is data gathering of documents and understanding what is jointly in the marriage. Often I see the spouse that is not in control or in the know how of the situation has not been privy to any documents or understanding of what is being held or jointly or not, or debt or and things like that. So it’s basically trying to get all of that before they file.

Gary Weiss  33:46 
So in our final final moments here together, which I’ve had a great time. Thank you, Kristen, what’s your one last parting advice to you can give to our listeners

Kristen Hafner  33:59 
Ah, is to pay attention to pay attention to your I mean, it’s the hard thing because paying attention to your financial self can be daunting. But if you if you delay and delay and delay and then finally you get to that point where you’re like, Okay, I’m ready now to do that. It’s usually at a point where it may be too late to hit your goals. And so starting to pay attention at a frequency that doesn’t cause you to avoid the subject is is the key. And everyone it’s just like your fingerprint. Everyone’s has a money mindset that they established pretty young. And a lot of times when I work with adult children and parents, they have the same money mindset. So everyone’s frequency of paying attention is different. And so that’s one of the things I try to figure out Early on in the relationship because I don’t want them to run and hide from me and not ask me questions.

Gary Weiss  35:06 
So to sum it up they want you want them to listen to you. Yeah, great. Well then intrepid listeners that’s all the time we have for our for today. I’d like to thank my guest Kristen Hafner of financial Moxie now that we know what Moxie means. Please look for future podcasts right here same bat time, same bat channel. I guarantee you you will be entertained and enlightened at the same time. I am your host Gary Weis. I look forward to spending time with you on our next podcasts. You all come back now you hear

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